It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:53 pm
Change font size
Hero-U Forum

Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption

Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby unleasher » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:04 am

Fascinating! Since I don't have ubuntu, could you post some screenshots when you have a chance?



richardbrucebaxter wrote:Ambaryerno - the redesign of the saurus and saurus rex is one of my major issues with QFG1 VGA also. This appears to be my only serious concern raised by the contents of this thread.

In general I agree with Merryjest in that the Coles could have created anything and it would have been enjoyable (for the same reasons Southpark works). As it turns out however, we are getting a lot more than a tiled adventure/RPG game.

Zachski - you should try the high definition mod of QFG5 (with 16x tessellation; see qfgmods.net). The pixelation becomes a non-issue with a high polycount (which enhances both the curvature and lighting of the models). Moreover, the 3D game art of QFG5 is fine - the polycount was obviously reduced (during the ~3D studio max export process) to support current generation/~200Mhz CPUs, but with the restoration of a high polycount it all looks really good; even better than the original voxel version - which had a number of its own limitations.

The high effective polycount of the QFG5 background panoramas (effectively infinite because the scenes have been raytraced using volumetric primitives) appears to have been designed to match the model quality of the QFG5 voxel 3D engine (again; in voxel rendering the polycount is effectively infinite/per pixel up to regular view distances). So the background panoramas look good as computer graphics (as opposed to hand drawn) when combined with high resolution models. Things look good when they are consistent (take the texture to poly detail ratio of doom 1 for an instance of semblance perfection).

Personally I prefer SCI for adventure, but there are elements of QFG5 which just wouldn't have been possible in 2D (swimming, combat etc; and I really like its melee combat system).

In terms of the graphics engine choice of RTR, I emailed something to Corey back in May 2015;

"Note I have just finished testing the demos under a simulated classic 2D adventure gaming interface, and was thinking of posting something about this.

I think the game looks great in 3D, but for all those die hard 320x200 2D adventure gamers out there, it is worth noting that you can emulate 2D games based on high resolution 3D games in Linux (using a compositing window manger like compiz). It just involves lowering the resolution and rescaling it;

On Ubuntu 14.04;

- Start Ubuntu using the default window manager (Unity)
- Open a terminal (gnome-terminal)
- Install CompizConfig Settings Manager and all the plugins;
sudo apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager compiz-plugins compiz-plugins-extra
- ccsm
- select 'enhanced zoom desktop' plugin
- Zoom In/Out - edit Zoom In Button <Shift><Control><Button1>
- Zoom In/Out - edit Zoom out Button <Shift><Control><Button3>
- Zoom In/Out - set zoom factor 2.0 (or 1.5)
- Mouse behaviour - Pan Area
- Tick 'Enable enhanced zoom desktop'
- Back - close - exit CompizConfig Settings Manager
- Execute the game (e.g. ./Hero-U-Demo.x86)
- Ensure Windowed mode is selected
- Set resolution to 640x480 (or 640x800)
- Start Hero-U
- Use the mouse to resize the game window to half the size (320x200)
- Trigger the enhanced zoom desktop Zoom In function (hold Shift-Control and click the left mouse button) to scale the window to fit the width/height of the screen"
User avatar
unleasher
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:11 am

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Ambaryerno » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:25 am

richardbrucebaxter wrote:Ambaryerno - the redesign of the saurus and saurus rex is one of my major issues with QFG1 VGA also. This appears to be my only serious concern raised by the contents of this thread.


There were quite a few issues I had with the VGA version.

To start with, some content was removed. For example the very back cave of the secret entrance to the Brigand Fortress, where you could still fight the Troll even if you used the password. You could also question the Baron for a few minutes after rescuing Barnard in the EGA version, but in the VGA you're immediately dismissed after he gives his speech thanking you.

There was also that infuriating change so that running out of SP in combat instantly killed you no matter how much health you had left.

The VGA version seemed a lot buggier, as well. I frequently experienced a broken UI if my character got overloaded or exhausted (text wouldn't display properly, including on the Character Sheet) and the only fix was to reload a save from before it happened). Also, introducing yourself to Yorrick and telling him you were there to help Elsa didn't properly cause him to leave the maze area of the Brigand Fortress. The dialogue triggered, but he stayed in the room and continued to harass you.
User avatar
Ambaryerno
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:54 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Zachski » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Ambaryerno wrote:You could also question the Baron for a few minutes after rescuing Barnard in the EGA version, but in the VGA you're immediately dismissed after he gives his speech thanking you.


It sounds like you have an unpatched version of the game, because I've been able to question the Baron many times AND I don't experience the UI glitch you're talking about.
Zachski
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:55 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby richardbrucebaxter » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:50 pm

unleasher wrote:Fascinating! Since I don't have ubuntu, could you post some screenshots when you have a chance?


Note the effect can be generated by starting the demo in windowed mode (e.g. 640x480), taking a screenshot in game, pasting it into an image editor, lowering the resolution by 2x, and increasing the resolution by 2x (without interpolation).
User avatar
richardbrucebaxter
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:44 am

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Caz Neerg » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:09 pm

My biggest issue with the VGA version of QfG1 was the completely unnecessary alterations to the color palette. I wanted a VGA version of Spielburg and the hero as originally presented, in all it's 80s style glory. Blue shirt, black cape, cyan colored goblins, the whole works.
Caz Neerg
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby btkramer » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:03 pm

I think the current 3D graphics do look great, but I don't think they look any better than good 2D graphics either, as they can also look great.

If the 3D graphics really added that much time, cost and complexity to the game over 2D, then I feel it was probably a waste to do. I think everybody would have been much happier with a great 2D graphics game released a year or two ago vs. this, if that was the case. And since it would have been much easier and less costly to build, we'd have a better chance of a sequel, and maybe even have had a sequel out by now, which means more money to the devs and better profitability, which means more games like this made, etc.

This is why devs need people reigning them in, keeping them on track and focused, making calls about what to focus on, what to cut, etc., and why so many of these Kickstarted type games by the original devs or studios with no accountability have failed or been delayed so much. *cough* Star Citizen *cough*. And this game is by far one of the better examples, thankfully. Most of the rest are in far worse shape than Hero-U, and as a result, I (and I think most people) are very unlikely to crowdfund another game in the future, which is sad.

I think these devs need to stop trying to make 'the game of their dreams with no compromises' and make 'as close to their dream as possible within the timetable', only delaying release if their is something game-breaking that needs to be fixed. Again, I say this in general, not specifically leveled at Corey and Lori.

All said, I am still quite happy with the progress of this game and look forward to its release. But I also wish that if there were a few (insignificant) corners that could have been cut, such as going with 2D over 3D, which could have shaved significant time and cost off the development that they would have been done.
btkramer
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:24 am

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Caz Neerg » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:37 pm

I might be wrong here, but I think if you have experienced 3D artists working on the game, it might actually be less expensive and less time consuming to go with 3D than manage to get 2D up to modern graphical quality standards.
Caz Neerg
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Bashar » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:03 am

Hero-U really bridges both worlds in the same way that many games do by combining 3D and 2D elements. A simple way to look at it that stationary objects are easier to create in 2D while moving objects are easier to create in 3D. Here we have 3D animated characters projected against a 2D backdrop, not unlike Infinity Engine style games like Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland II.

The reason being that animations can easily be ported between 3D objects while they have to be rendered individually for 2D objects. Even for something as basic as walking animations, 2D sprites have to be drawn individually for each character. By contrast, if you create a very intricate and complex animation for a single 3D character, any other character with the same skeleton will automatically be able to use it. Moreover, a lot of generic animations are available on the Unity asset store, allowing animators to focus their time on custom ones that have specific use.

So 3D may be a little more complicated to set up over a 2D game but once it's in place it scales a lot better than rendering 2D animations. This will be beneficial to the Coles when it comes to making the sequels.
Bashar
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:11 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Caz Neerg » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:55 am

Bashar wrote:Here we have 3D animated characters projected against a 2D backdrop, not unlike Infinity Engine style games like Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland II.


The difference being that, if the screenshots in the most recent update are indicative of the overall quality, Hero-U is actually going to look better than PoE or Wasteland 2.
Caz Neerg
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby lancelot » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:14 am

Caz Neerg wrote:The difference being that, if the screenshots in the most recent update are indicative of the overall quality, Hero-U is actually going to look better than PoE or Wasteland 2.


That may be a bit of a stretch. This or this looks better than this? Hero-U is not HD, and it doesn't seem to have complex shadows, more like just lightmaps. Not to mention the level of detail, the animations, the environment effects. And PoE is a 2015 game.

But that's probably a wrong line of arguing, the question is more like what is a necessity and what is a deliberate choice. A 2D RPG (Griftlands) seems like a difficult thing to do. I was wondering in my previous post about whether or not it was a good idea to go with 3D for QfG 5, but I was asking only about QfG 5, with no wink-nudge towards Hero-U.
lancelot
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 9:50 am

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Ambaryerno » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:24 am

lancelot wrote:
Caz Neerg wrote:The difference being that, if the screenshots in the most recent update are indicative of the overall quality, Hero-U is actually going to look better than PoE or Wasteland 2.


That may be a bit of a stretch. This or this looks better than this? Hero-U is not HD, and it doesn't seem to have complex shadows, more like just lightmaps. Not to mention the level of detail, the animations, the environment effects. And PoE is a 2015 game.


Be careful not to confuse art style with graphics quality. PoE uses a realistic look, while Hero U is going for something much more stylized. That's going to naturally lead to differences in the use of light and shadow, and even textures.
User avatar
Ambaryerno
 
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:54 pm

Re: Why didn't you guys try a traditional 2d adventure game?

Postby Caz Neerg » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:22 am

Ambaryerno wrote:
lancelot wrote:
Caz Neerg wrote:The difference being that, if the screenshots in the most recent update are indicative of the overall quality, Hero-U is actually going to look better than PoE or Wasteland 2.


That may be a bit of a stretch. This or this looks better than this? Hero-U is not HD, and it doesn't seem to have complex shadows, more like just lightmaps. Not to mention the level of detail, the animations, the environment effects. And PoE is a 2015 game.


Be careful not to confuse art style with graphics quality. PoE uses a realistic look, while Hero U is going for something much more stylized. That's going to naturally lead to differences in the use of light and shadow, and even textures.


Yeah, "looks better" weighs a combination of art design and graphics quality. Regardless of what you think of the graphics quality in PoE, I found most of the art design generic and boring, and most of the characters were almost completely lacking in any visual distinctiveness. Wasteland II was even worse in regard to art design.

Hero-U, on the other hand, looks like what you would get if you took the aesthetic sensibilities of QfGIV and filtered them through modern 3D graphics. And as far as art design goes, I'm not sure there has ever been a better game than QfGIV, at least not for my taste.
Caz Neerg
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Previous

Return to Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Search

User Control Panel